Navigating the Journey of Child Loss with Kathe Wunnenberg

In this heartfelt conversation, Greg talks with Kathe Wunnenberg, founder of Hope Lifters Unlimited, about her profound journey of grief and healing. Kathe shares her personal experiences with loss, including the death of her son and multiple miscarriages, and how these experiences shaped her understanding of grief and GOD’s goodness in our suffering. They discuss the importance of community support, the unique nature of grieving a child, and the role of faith in finding hope amidst pain. Kathe emphasizes the need for individuals to give themselves permission to grieve and to seek purpose in their loss, while also highlighting the significance of honoring memories and supporting siblings who are grieving. The conversation offers practical insights and encouragement for those navigating their own grief journeys, reminding listeners that they are not alone and that healing is possible.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:49

Well, hi, and welcome back for our latest episode. I'm Greg Buffkin, and as always, thank you for listening. Joining me today is Kathe Wunnenberg. Kathe is the founder and president of Hopelifters Unlimited, which is a Christ-centered resource and training organization to help encourage grieving, hurting, and weary women. Kathe’s a noted speaker, a consultant, and author of four books. She is well acquainted with grief, having lost her 14-month-old son, as well as having had three miscarriage losses within 14 months. Kathe is married, has three living sons, and lives with her family in Arizona. I think you'll really be encouraged by this conversation. And now here's my conversation with Kathe. Well, Kathe welcome to our podcast. It is so good to have you as our guest today.

Speaker: 1:51

It's great to be with you, Greg.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Thank you. Well, as with all of my guests, at the beginning of each episode, I just ask each guest to share anything that they would like on a personal level that they would like for the listeners to know that they might not pick up otherwise by Googling you.

Speaker: 2:12

Well, I was raised in a small town of Missouri, so I'm a small town girl of 300. But I tell you what, God has done amazing things in my life. So I'm you can take the girl out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the girl. So that's something you may not know. I'm I'm a mom of seven. I have four babies in heaven, and I have three living sons, adult, young adult sons, and one through the gift of adoption. So you may not see that. I've been married to my college sweetheart for almost 45 years. So that's a miracle.

Speaker 1: 2:47

Congratulations.

Speaker: 2:49

And really grateful. And recently, in the last couple of years, God allowed me to go on a new journey of loss through breast cancer. So that was a journey unexpected. And yet, what I've found, Greg, is that all of what I've learned through the loss of my children is that that helped me go through another circumstance that I was not expecting. And I'm glad to report that, you know, my husband had a quadruple bypass during that time as well.

Speaker 1: 3:19

Oh, wow.

Speaker: 3:20

So talk about extremes. And I know many of the listeners out there probably are in those health challenges too. I can assure you that God meets you no matter where you're at. And he did for us. We're doing great. We're in a healthy season and we are celebrating all that he's done. So that's a little bit about me. I am in the desert. So I've lived here over 40 years, and I said, God brought me here. And I said, Do I get to cross over after 40 years? And he said, Not yet. So I think I'm on year 42, but I am weathering the weather, but I am grateful to be here. And I love technology so that we can connect with one another and bring hope.

Speaker 1: 4:01

Oh, absolutely. You know, it it always is always a double-edged sword. You know, it can be, I think when a lot of the new technology was being rolled out, those of us who are in or older generation, shall we say, may have been resistant to it at some points along along the way. But I think we've all learned that, man, it it is amazing what God can do with this technology because otherwise we wouldn't be doing what we're doing right now.

Speaker: 4:32

That's true. And we can actually thank COVID for that. I mean, that really got us all connecting. So there's always something to be grateful for, even if we really don't like what it is.

Speaker 1: 4:45

Yeah. God can bring good out of the worst.

Speaker: 4:48

He can.

Speaker 1: 4:49

And you know, it's funny. You were telling us that, you know, you live in the desert. It's God has quite a reputation for teaching us things in the desert, doesn't he?

Speaker: 5:02

He does. He does. I mean, it's like the things that we have to learn. I actually spent some time during last year's sabbatical, just what are the lessons I learned in the desert? And even if you physically don't live in a desert like I do, we go through desert times.

Speaker 1: 5:20

Yes, we do.

Speaker: 5:21

Somewhere between what was and what's going to be. And so we can learn a lot of great lessons. And he speaks loud and clear when we're in the desert.

Speaker 1: 5:31

He does. And if you haven't been there, just hang on, because at some point you probably will be.

Speaker: 5:37

Life is a series of endings of what used to be the Egypt, I call it, and then the in-between, that desert and wilderness place, and then the new beginning. And let's face, let's face it, Greg, we'd like to get from what was to what's going to be and not do the desert or the wilderness time the in-between.

Speaker 1: 5:59

Yeah, I I kind of prefer that too. But we don't always get to choose that, do we?

Speaker: 6:05

I know.

Speaker 1: 6:06

Yeah, but fortunately, he knows better. And as you said a minute ago, what you went through all those years ago grieving the loss of children enabled you to be able to better weather the storm that of breast cancer. It's you know and you wouldn't have chosen that.

Speaker: 6:34

No, I wouldn't have chosen that, but it was a necessary part of my journey. And what I learned, Greg, when I lost our son and and other babies through miscarriage, that I could either choose to whine and resist the desert, or I could learn to worship and meet God there. And so I I determined that I needed to just surrender and learn the lessons. And by doing that, fast forward through other life circumstances. How I got to know God in those moments, because usually people are not with you. Others can't go there with you, with God. And who I became acquainted with Him and got to build our relationship and heard from Him only built my faith and enabled me to know that, oh, you were faithful then, you'll be faithful now. Who I got to know you many years ago, you will be even beyond that in this circumstance. So I trusted him.

Speaker 1: 7:43

Yeah, and and he rewards that. We, I mean, you've experienced it as well as we have. And, you know, when when you go through things like that, you know, you discover that he's he's there in that with you. He doesn't leave you there to go through it by yourself. And he will carry us through that. And there are, as hard as it seems, he can, he has this ability to bring good out of the absolute worst imaginable traumatic events of life. And once we've once we've seen his faithfulness in something as traumatic as losing a child, it really does, if we lean into him and give him that pain and trauma, it really does help us the next time something presents itself in our life, and we've got to lean on him. We, you know, we have to do whatever it is by faith. It's a whole lot easier to trust him in that next event. And I know you you have found that.

Speaker: 8:53

Absolutely. I mean, I relied on the character of God in every one of my devotionals. Every devotion points to a character of who God is out of my experience of being in that wilderness or that desert. And I could just go back through the pages and look at the scriptures of who God says he is and know that, yeah, he is faithful. He is my strength, he is, was my comforter. Well, he was, but he's gonna be. He is the one that sees me and hears me and picks me up and strengthens me. And relying on that, knowing, knowing him has gotten me through and continues to get me through.

Speaker 1: 9:36

Absolutely. And you know, Kathy, we've talked a little bit about the, I think by now the listeners understand that you have experienced multiple uh miscarriages, and you you guys lost your four, I believe, 14-month-old son, John. And so you guys are really well acquainted with grief, unfortunately.

Speaker: 9:56

We were. I mean, it's unfortunate, but we we lost three babies through miscarriage, and then with John Samuel, we found out in the 14th week, and so you were right with the 14, the 14th week that he had a fatal birth defect. You know, doctors were saying, you know, you could terminate the pregnancy, but we knew that this was a miracle baby, and we continue to carry him the 42 weeks, knowing that God was able to heal him. And if he chose not to on this side of heaven, we knew he would be healed. So he chose not to heal him physically, but God enabled us to hold him when he was born and to release him when he was born into eternity. And his life continues to make an impact.

Speaker 1: 10:45

That is the part that I think sometimes goes for people who are living on the outside of this and haven't experienced it, is that seeing how our child is able to continue touching lives, as you said, years and even decades after they after they go home to heaven. And you've seen that, we we continue to see that, and and that, you know, it as much as it hurts, and as much as we would love to have the ability to hold our children again and interact with them again, we know that because of God's grace, if they're infants and if later on if they are in Christ, then we know that we're going to be reunited with them again. And so we have that absolute hope that that this it will be better at at some point in time, and that that the pain does last. The pain is is something that stays with you, but you know, as you and I talked about earlier, the acuteness of that grief does uh does get better over time. You know, I want those who are listening today, maybe who are in a very fresh, acute season of grief, to understand that there are no right or wrong ways to grieve because it is so personal and because every loss is so different. However, there certainly are uh healthy and unhealthy ways to grieve. And that that's a whole different matter. But as Kathy said, if you're listening today, give yourself permission to grieve and give yourself permission to stop feeling pressure, whether it's self-induced or whether it's coming from the outside, to get over it. Because there is no getting over it.

Speaker: 12:54

No, it's what steps can we take to embrace our loss. And what I prayed early on, fresh in my grief, because I knew I could not do this alone. I just said, God, use my loss, enlarge me through it and use my loss to matter. I wanted purposeful loss and grief. And boy, did he ever. So I and so those of you that might be really in that raw, acute place, just know offering even the rawness of where you're at in your pain, to just say, God, I'm hurting, and yet meet me in this pain, show me what to do, and enlarge me through it and make it count. And I trust you, He will. I've seen many people that have written me or talked to me, and they said, that prayer, Kathy, of saying, God enlarge me through my loss has changed my life. You know, they said the next week their neighbor lost a child, and they were able to be there as a comforter, even in the raw, in the fresh place in their grief. They were able to reach out to someone else.

Speaker 1: 14:18

Yeah. And that in itself really can help begin true healing in us as we step into those opportunities that God provides us to help somebody else. A lot of times I think we end up discovering that it helped us at least as much, if not more, than it did them.

Speaker: 14:42

You know, Greg, it's it's like living 2 Corinthians 1, 3 through 4. And my paraphrase for this verse, I'm going to read the verse first, so it says, Praise be to the God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion, and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble and the comfort we ourselves receive. So, right there, that gives us all hope. My paraphrase for that is we go through what we go through to help others go through what we went through. And that's what you and I are wanting to do. That's why we're here.

Speaker 1: 15:27

Yeah. And it reminds me too, I think that goes hand in hand with what Romans 12, 15 says, that we that we celebrate with the, and I'm paraphrasing that into modern English. We celebrate with those who are celebrating and we grieve with those who grieve. So it's a it's a matter of you know sometimes we enter into that journey with them. We step into it and we step out of it, we step in and we step out, depending upon their individual needs and depending upon where they are on that grief journey. But but it is it's a necessary thing, I think, to continue to move forward is not to allow that to just to just kind of get dammed up inside of us. It's got to come out. And one way of doing that is to speak into the lives of other people who are maybe in a fresher season or a more acute season. Because every time we talk about it, it helps. It helps us to be able to process it. And that processing helps us to be able to better navigate going forward.

Speaker: 16:43

It really does.

Speaker 1: 16:44

Yeah, yeah. So, Kathy, you know, for when you think thinking back to those days, those early days when you guys were in that those acute seasons of grief. Grief triggers all sorts of emotions in us. And it triggers so many questions, and it leaves us sometimes just feeling angry and guilty, and there's this mental confusion that sometimes we kind of equate to what COVID brain was like, uh, where you just you feel like you're going crazy, and you feel like you can't make decisions. You don't want to make decisions. Everything is just hard, and you sometimes feel almost paralyzed in some respects, and it that that time frame lasts different lengths of time for different people. So, for you guys, how were you able to begin accepting what had happened, to start figuring out how to process through that, and then to be able to navigate the path forward, like we talked about earlier, not the path over, but the path forward.

Speaker: 18:02

Well, for us, again, it's personal.

Speaker 1: 18:05

Right.

Speaker: 18:06

Our our journey of grieving and loss began at the 14th week of my pregnancy when we got the diagnosis on Good Friday that your baby's gonna die. So, how I dealt with that is I needed some time alone to process. And that was ironically, Easter weekend. So I went into my Gethsemane closet, which was a room for the weekend. And I, for the first time, I think, understood to a new level of what Jesus cried out when he was in Gethsemane. And he said, Would you take this? You know, if you could take this cup of suffering, I'm paraphrasing, but take it. And I did not want to have to suffer. I had gone through this diagnosis with a friend years earlier, which is God's grace, really, to let me be prepared. But I had to wrestle in sorrow and in that dark night of the soul with those questions, if you can take this away. And finally, I got to a point where those three words that Jesus cried out is yet. That was the turning point for me to say, yet, not my will but thine be done. Now I realize for some listeners, you may be going through a long-term illness or gone through a long-term illness, so you understand what I'm talking about. And for others, maybe it was an unexpected loss. So we're all going to respond. But that was my first wrestling is dealing with the yet, not my will but thine. And there were times when I was crying unexpectedly. There were times when I was angry and I threw my shoes against the wall. There were times where, you know, I was in a dark place of depression. And I needed to talk to others to help me get through that.

Speaker 1: 20:05

Yeah.

Speaker: 20:06

There were times where I thought I had surrendered my pain. And I thought I was doing, as others say, Are you doing okay? Well, I thought I was in that moment, only to discover that I rounded a new bin and there was a whole other mountain to climb.

Speaker 1: 20:24

Yeah.

Speaker: 20:24

So I had to learn to be gentle with myself and learn to say, I need to be where I'm at. And of course, I would look and I do what I call the halt. Am I hungry, angry, lonely, or tired? They use that in 12-step programs, but I knew that that mattered to me too. How's my body doing? How's my emotions doing? And how's my spirit doing? So I could be, you know, great in the morning and by the afternoon different. So I had to give myself to permission, but I also had to be willing to let God connect me to people or resources to be willing to go there.

Speaker 1: 21:10

Yeah, it's some of that comes down to making choices. Uh, because uh as as we alluded to a minute ago, when you're in the in in that early season of grief, you just don't want to make any decisions. You just want you just want peace, you want comfort, and you want ease. You don't want to have to deal with anything difficult. Uh but you have to. You know, it it's true. You you can't avoid it, but for so long. And then you have we get to choose. I mean, you know, we either step into it or we bury it. And at some point, even though we've tried to bury it, it it'll resurface. And a lot of times it's worse if we buried it, because it's festering inside all that time anyway.

Speaker: 22:07

It's true. And there are times when we can't, but he can. Yes. But are we willing to let him?

Speaker 1: 22:16

Yeah.

Speaker: 22:17

Sometimes that means saying, I can't function today and I don't know what to do. And having someone to talk to, it may be a grief share group. That's a wonderful program.

Speaker 1: 22:30

That yeah, they are.

Speaker: 22:32

It's it's everywhere. It may be going to one and just saying, and you find out you're not alone. It may be going to a doctor or a counselor, it may be talking to a friend or a family member or spouse to say, I just can't function. And it may be allowing others to do things for you for a time. Yes. To receive. And I know we both have had to learn the lesson of receiving because it's so much easier to give and be in control. And it sometimes feels weak when we allow ourselves to receive help from others in those times when we can't think or we can't do.

Speaker 1: 23:15

Yeah. Well, you just you nailed it. And when you said you can't be in control, we all like to be in control. And when you lose a child, you realize that that perception that you had of being in control, you know, you it may, it's I don't mean that you're you can you're a control freak, but we all like to think that we are in some respect controlling how our lives are going or how we're going to go. But you realize when that happens that it was just an illusion.

Speaker: 23:55

It was. And surrender is so important. One funny thing, and those of you that are listening, you could do this right now. Everybody just put your hands up in the air. Put your hands up in the air. That is the universal symbol around the world with all of the armed forces for surrender.

Speaker 1: 24:13

Yes.

Speaker: 24:14

So what's beautiful about that is as I lost our son and then went on to have birth two healthy children who really never knew all of the grief I'd gone through, they would see me walking around the house, throwing my hands up in the air. And one day, one ass, they said, Mom, what are you doing? I said, Well, I'm surrendering. In that moment, I sensed grief being triggered or something surfacing that I needed to release to God. But the beautiful part is when you throw it up to him, you're actually reaching up to him. And he's reaching down to you. And I began just calling on who I needed him to be. If I was really angry, God, would you just, I'm releasing my anger. Would you just be the calm in my storm? Or God, I am so sad. And I would release that. And God, would you be the joy that strengthens me? So that became and still does. Now, when I was going through breast cancer, I couldn't raise my arms for a while. So it was a little tricky. But yeah, but I did it in my heart. And when I could raise my arms, that was something. But that's something that is a tangible, practical way that you can offer it to God and ask him to be who you need him to be.

Speaker 1: 25:44

Yeah, and there is an awful lot of of peace and release in that when you can choose to do that, when you can choose to surrender, give it to him, realizing that you don't have what you need, but he does. And it is amazing the difference that it could make and will make. You know, I something you said a minute ago triggered this thought, and that is, you know, I I suspect if you and your husband are like most couples, you're probably opposites in a lot of ways. Understatement?

Speaker: 26:25

He's an engineer, and yes. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:28

Introvert, extrovert. Say no more. So how did you how did you guys grieve together as a couple, but give yourselves the freedom to grieve independently as two very different individuals? What did that look like for y'all?

Speaker: 26:46

Well, I I have phrased it that men are like hardware stores and women are like coffee shops. Okay. That now, and and for us, that was the way it was. You know, for my husband, really, Home Depot was a place he went. And he got busy. I called him missing in action. He was always busy, went right back to work, got right back into the zone because his way of dealing with it was to be busy. Where I, on the other hand, I did go to coffee shops. I would have my photos, and I feel sorry for a lot of the people that I never knew, strangers, showing them pictures of my baby. I then began talking to friends at coffee shops, but we did have to give ourselves permission to grieve differently.

Speaker 1: 27:38

Right.

Speaker: 27:39

And there were times when we did come together, we shared tears, we shared fears, we shared frustrations with I expected him to be something he couldn't be for me at that time because he was hurting.

Speaker 1: 27:57

Right.

Speaker: 27:58

And I found that you know, there's a book that says hurt people, hurt people. We were both grieving, and sometimes we weren't the best for each other to encourage in the way that we needed. So we had to learn when we were able to, and we we weren't, we had to learn to communicate honestly. Yeah. And if I needed conversation, he'd look at me and he says, I can't be that. Why don't you grab a friend and go to the coffee shop? And I could look at him and say, It's a time for a Home Depot run. So that was the way that we got through that. And of course, we were asking God to help us and we were asking people to pray for us, but we had to give ourselves permission to personally be where we were in our journeys.

Speaker 1: 28:49

Yeah, that's a good word because I think it's I think sometimes through conversations I've had with with others, it's very easy, unfortunately, because as we've talked about a number of times already, that individuals grieve differently. But sometimes when you're in a marriage relationship and you see your mate grieving differently than you do. And I think a lot of times it's more so with the moms feeling like their husband, who maybe he's an engineer like your husband, and he's very introverted and quiet, or whether he's an extrovert. He's gonna deal with it differently. And sometimes it doesn't look like, from all appearances, that he's really grieving at the level that you are. And sometimes I think that causes tension and arguments and resentment. But what you were just saying is so important because we have to give each other that freedom and permission to grieve like only we grieve.

Speaker: 30:04

Absolutely. I I've made mistakes with people because my personality is let's talk about it, let's be expressive. And when someone had a loss that I was reaching out to, I early on would respond the way I needed. That was not how, and fortunately, that person was honest and said, this was not as meaningful to me as it would be for you. So I learned that I need to think about what's their love language, what's who are they? And I just began praying, God, show me how to help this person, show me how to help my husband. I began asking God because I figure he knows more than I do. And that was a turning point for me to start asking him.

Speaker 1: 30:54

Yeah, that's good. And I think in some respects what it's saying is we have to meet people where they are instead of wanting them to be the way we want them to be or the way that we are, we have to accept and honor and respect that they are who they are. And that's okay. There is not a thing in the world wrong with those two, those two aspects of grief being so different.

Speaker: 31:24

And I discovered that with our little child. Our little boy was six when he lost his baby brother. And he needed to grieve and he needed permission to grieve. And I remember them the nurses cautioning us to bring him to the hospital to see this baby that, you know, by the world standards, we put a little hat on him, but he didn't look as normal as other babies.

Speaker 1: 31:49

Sure.

Speaker: 31:49

And I said this is important for him to hold this baby that he prayed for and he played Hot Wheels with as the baby would kick. He needed to have that. And over the few the next few months he said to me Mom, I want a picture of John Samuel and me. So I, and he wanted it right on his wall. So that's what he needed. And he wanted to go to the to the graveside and have Taco Bell picnics. So we did. Now other people might think well that's a little crazy. Of course my engineer husband kind of rolled his eyes but that's what our little six year old son needed. And in first grade he drew pictures of his brother in heaven.

Speaker 1: 32:34

Yeah.

Speaker: 32:34

And that was important to recognize it's not just adults agree, but it's children and others.

Speaker 1: 32:43

I'm so glad you brought that up Kathy because unfortunately siblings you know you and I both know who have lost a brother or sister are known as the Forgotten Mourners. And there are obvious reasons for that. But it is important as parents even in your own grief to to try to to recognize that that that brother or sister younger or older is grieving. They may not be sharing it as much may not be talking about it as much with particularly with you as the parent because particularly if they're older they probably don't want to put any more on you than you already have. And so therefore they have a tendency to keep a lot of it to themselves and hopefully eventually we'll find some kind of community to share it with whether it be the counselor, the the physician or just somebody an another significant person in their life. But we do need to recognize that that it's not just the parents so thank you for for bringing that up and that's one of the things that we that we purposed to do when we started the empty chair endeavor was to focus both on the the parents but also on those those grieving siblings. Kathy I think there are probably for listeners today that are maybe in that early season of grief and and of course it applies to people like us too but I think in the early season of grief you know when there's so much acute pain and you get hit a lot by those what we call tidal waves of grief that just kind of hit us from out of nowhere. It's kind of like getting T-boned you know going down the highway. And there you know then there's those more subtle ones. I call them the little the little ambushes where you just you don't see it coming it could be a song it could be a a scent that you associated with your child or an article of clothing you open a drawer and oh gosh there it is and you're so suddenly brought back to to those early moments. For somebody who's feeling that way today like is this the way my life is going to be for the rest of my life is it going to always hurt like this and is it going to always deep this messy what would you say to them?

Speaker: 35:18

Well I would say it's kind of like a rainbow. It takes both sunshine and tears to make a rainbow you know both rain and sunshine but I've learned got over time I think God has changed my perspective when I have a a moment where like a a fragrance or a piece of clothing or just a setting will trigger or remind me I pause and I realize okay it's all right to feel and then I thank God for remind for not forgetting my child because what I don't want to do is ever forget that John Samuel lived that my children had a purpose and in unique ways God uses those moments to say I see you I remember it's okay to feel and yet even if there's tears I can have a smile knowing that my child will never be forgotten.

Speaker 1: 36:31

No your child will not you certainly won't forget I think that's impossible for a parent to do. But I think it also brings up another really important point for those of us who are on a grief journey we do fear that other people will forget our child and that they will you know within a few months or a few years it'll be as though they they never lived and so I think you hopefully I don't think there's any doubt you would agree with this if you uh if you have somebody in your life who's grieving the loss of a child don't be afraid to speak that child's name in their presence don't be afraid to ask about them or sh or even share with them something that you experienced with that child, whether it be you know you went on some sort of a trip together, you know, you're a funny story about your child. And you can just ask would it be okay if I shared a story about John? Would it be okay if I told you about what happened this this particular time because it's like music to our ears, isn't it? When somebody else uses their name.

Speaker: 37:47

It is and when people do something to honor your child I remember early on I went to the cemetery and there was a gift on the grave and there and there was not a note but it was so amazing. And so that prompted me to think and to pray and say God how can I remember other people maybe I don't know them but how can so I did a cemetery surprise. So on Mother's Day I put Ziploc bags and I put little Bibles and I put all kinds of fun gifts and I put mylar balloons that said Happy Mother's Day all over the newbies. You could go around the graves and you knew who the newbies were the the the fresh flowers that you know the fresh and so my husband amazingly did it with me. So we were able to without saying their names but yet we could I could say their names because I knew so I wrote them a note I know you're remembering Mary today and we are and I didn't let them know it was me. It was just an anonymous gift. And so when people do something to honor you or your child or say their name or do something our our six year old son said hey mom what are we going to do for his birthday and you know I hadn't thought about it. So the one year anniversary so we decided that the shoebox ministry was timely so we did a shoebox with a child that age. So every year we began doing something unique because it honored him and our son who is now a young adult male continues to do things to honor others in his brother's name.

Speaker 1: 39:37

Oh that is that is so amazing and you know I those those folks that you've done that for they may not know that it was you Kathy but they will never ever ever forget that and you know it it is a way when we you know when we stop and think that as Christians we are Jesus's representatives in the world that we touch. And so when you do when we do things like that even if it's anonymously and I think maybe even more importantly if we do it anonymously maybe God gets all the credit and maybe that individual is thinking oh my gosh God did this for me today through somebody else like you. Yeah.

Speaker: 40:27

And yeah I mean it it is amazing and it brings me so much joy when I hear someone who has lost a child or a loved one I could just say God what's my part you know you might read it in the newspaper see it online hear it on the news and the year that Columbine happened God really prompted me. He said I want you to write a personal note to each of them on the year anniversary and I want you to send them a copy of your book grieving the loss of a loved one so I did. Got all their names I wrote I don't expect thank you cards but I did because I asked God what's my part and it we all have a part and somehow when we do that it validates our child yeah and it validates our grief and it transforms it into something very purposeful.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Yes absolutely Kathy before I get you to tell us a little bit more about your ministry Hopelifters Unlimited I do want to ask you another question that because this is I guess known as a grief podcast what we I think hopefully people what people are hearing is that the focus is not death. Yes that's a that's a part of our stories but somewhere along our journey we in order to be able to be healthy people again to be able to move forward as we've talked about and to find to to rediscover purpose and meaning and hope in their lives again that focus has to transition or needs to transition from our child's death to life who our child is the memories that our child left us the impact that our child made on our lives and the impact that our child is continuing to make particularly through us if we are engaged in some way in trying to help others for you as you think back through those seasons was there can you remember anything any points in time or anything that kind of triggered you feeling like gosh maybe I've kind of turned the corner and it's like you feel you can experience joy again you can laugh again without feeling guilty. You know what I mean? Does that does that question make sense?

Speaker: 43:12

It does you know I it was there one particular one I can't recall just one but there have been a number of them and one happened a week after which is amazing but it was I was in a deep place of recovering physically but also grieving deeply the you know the second grief I call it the actual physical loss and burial of our son. Right. And and I got a call from somebody that said I saw this woman in a newspaper in another state and she has the exact same diagnosis that your son had would you reach out to her well my first thought is well no I'm grieving I'm in this you know I don't I don't have it in me. And I just remembered God's little reminder to me that I had cried out enlarge me through my loss and I had to make a choice am I going to stay among the dead or am I going to choose to step forward to be among the living so I chose forward to reach out to that woman not knowing but I did. So that gave me the moment where I chose to allow God to use my hurt and make it into hope. Right and other opportunities that have fast forwarded where one day I just sensed that he wanted me to take a a group of grieving moms away on a bus trip. And that was pivotal because I'd never done anything like that. I'd done you know small things which anything we do is big in God's so we don't want to compare. Don't want to compare what you're doing and I'm doing do and be who you are. But I stepped forward in faith to be obedient and took about four years but four years later I chartered a bus and I took a group of grieving moms away and we've done 12 since getting on the bus and realizing that there were a group that were where I was in that dark place in the death mode and then across the aisle were those I call them hope lifters. They'd gone through it and they want to help you go through it. They reached across the aisle and now all of those that were on the one side are now on my team and that brings me so much joy to know that it just came with a little thought from God but just really from Him to offer myself.

Speaker 1: 45:40

Yeah and sometimes those opportunities do require that we step out of our comfort zone sometimes because as you said a minute ago when you're grieving everything is pretty much an effort there's nothing nothing seems easy but when we step into those opportunities realizing that you know we don't have to have all the answers or we don't have to have it figured out we don't have to know all the how-tos and what ifs and the whys and all that if we just step into it and offer ourselves it is amazing how God can use that not just to bless us but more so to bless other people and and it and everybody is encouraged and helped and finds hope in the process they do.

Speaker: 46:31

Another thing in the verse John 146 really helps me and I think it will help listeners it says you are the way the truth and the life absolutely and you know Jesus is saying those words you know I am the way the truth and the life and so I'm saying to him if you're the way and you're the truth and you're the life I need to follow you. Would you help me through this? Because we don't have to be alone he is with us. He will never leave us and those of us our children you know I like to picture my children are with him. This is a pause for me. This is just a comma it's not the end I'm one day closer to that amazing celebration but until then I want every moment to count.

Speaker 1: 47:21

Yeah I agree I feel the same way. Thank you for what you're doing and you you've been doing you've been doing things to help other grieving particularly moms for a long time you know not just those those bus tours that you talked about you've also written I think what four books? Yes and two of those I think more specific to parents who've lost children. Yes so why don't you take a minute tell us about those Kathy and how people can get them but also if there's anything that you would like to share in in more detail about your ministry hopelifters just take the you know take the the microphone and take it away.

Speaker: 48:07

Okay. Well I have written four books and ironically each grief devotional I was writing I was pregnant with a living a child that did live. So the first one was grieving the loss of a loved one and that is a 60 day devotional for anyone who has lost any loved one and it will point you to who God is not only scripture a short story a metaphor and a place to journal. I fought for the journal pages because sometimes we just need to write the second book is grieving the child I never knew and that's for anyone who's lost an unborn, newborn stillborn uh an infant and that helps them specifically specifically again look at who God is a a devotion a place to journal this one also has discussion guides because we're finding that a lot of the the women who have lost unborn babies there's not a place for them or for infants to really connect. So Hope lifter is my one of my signature books and that is a bringing creative ways to spread hope when life hurts and there's a hundred recipes of how do I help somebody in any life circumstance. And then there is a book Longing for a child which is going through the season of infertility and that's a devotional the grieving the loss of loved one and the grieving the child and hopelifter you can get on Amazon or Faith Gateway or I think Barnes and Noble has it. And the Longing for a child you need to contact me because that one we're revamping some things so that's one if you're going through infertility you can contact me.

Speaker 1: 49:43

And how can people do that Kathy?

Speaker: 49:45

How can they contact you directly probably the best way is just my email which is Kathy K-A-T-A-G at hopelifters dot com. So it's hopelifters dot com. They can just send me an email I always will respond within a few days and I can work it out with you to get you the the longing book if that's something. As far as where I'm at with hope lifters I'm getting ready to take a sabbatical I do that every year and going to really hear God what do you want me to do now? How do you want me to steward the roles including my grieving mom role? That's a role that I have how do you want me to steward that and we'll see where he takes it right now. I am mentoring women across the country and locally here in Arizona but there are a lot of leaders that are coming to me. And so if you're out there and we all have people we influence that is a heartbeat for me and I sense that during the sabbatical God's going to make it clear. So 2026 stay tuned I do have a website that's in process of being revamped hopelifters.com but 2026 we may be offering some things for leaders and I love to connect so again send me an email.

Speaker 1: 50:58

And I'll provide links both to your email and to your or I'll include your email and provide a link to Hopelifters so that it'll make it a little bit easier and that'll be in the podcast episode description. So take a look there if you would like Kathy thank you so very very much for sharing your heart today and for being so transparent about what you've experienced because I think that I think that your story and the encouragement that people heard today is going to go a long way to give grieving parents some hope and to know that they're they will if they'll just lean into God and give him their pain and their loss then he will bring you to a place where you will discover rediscover meaning and purpose in your life again and be able to help other people.

Speaker: 51:59

Yes. Well thank you Greg for having me and I just pray for all of the listeners that God will do immeasurably more according to his power. Just offer what you have and he'll multiply hope.

Speaker 1: 52:11

Absolutely thank you so much Kathy and for for those of you who are listening if this conversation meant something to you if it provided some hope and encouragement please let us know there's a play there's a link in the episode description where you can click and leave a message you can go to Apple Podcast. You can also leave a message you can leave a review or or a rating we love to hear from our listeners. And as always thank you so much for listening and we look forward to having you back in two weeks.