A Heart Stopping Call, with Mary McNamara, Zack's Mom

A phone call on Christmas morning 2020 brought heart shattering news she never could have imagined. On this episode, Mary McNamara talks with me about how one phone call forever altered her life that day. Her beautiful 28 year old son, Zack, had died during the night alone. We talk about the questions such a sudden, unexpected tragedy leaves a parent facing and trying to process. You'll also hear Mary talk about what a caring, sensitive, and funny young man Zack was as well as some of his struggles. With courage, transparency, and grace, Mary shares her own struggles along her grief journey and how her relationship with Jesus Christ has been her source of comfort and strength. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:48

Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Hope After Child Loss podcast. I'm Greg Bufkin, and on this episode, I'll be talking with Mary McNamara. In December of 2020, Mary lost her son, Zach, due to asthma complications. So we'll be talking about her grief journey over the past four years, as well as how God has been healing her broken heart and making her something beautiful out of all those broken pieces again. And now, here's my conversation with Mary. Well, Mary, welcome to our podcast today. It is so good to have you, my guest, a couple of minutes at the outset of our conversation, just to share a little bit of anything personal that you would like to share about your family, about work, about where you live, any of those things. And then we'll just kind of dive into your story.

SPEAKER_01: 1:44

Thank you so much for having me Greg. And he was born 21 months after my daughter Brittany was born. And he was a smiley, sweet, kind, patient, sensitive, silly, and very loving child.

SPEAKER_00: 2:31

Sounds like somebody I would love to meet.

SPEAKER_01: 2:33

Aw, thank you. When he was little, he loved playing with Matchbox cars. And then when he got older, like middle school age, he started playing with Matchbox. He loved skateboarding and rollerblading, and he loved to take bicycles apart.

SPEAKER_00: 2:49

Mary, I am amazed as I listen to you talk about Zach and the things that he loved to do. Our boys... could have been fast friends, because all those things that you were talking about are things that our son Ryan loved. And some of those descriptions that you gave of Zach, so many of those describe Ryan as well. I think that is just amazing. I

SPEAKER_01: 3:15

love that.

SPEAKER_00: 3:16

Yeah, I can see it's written all over your face, what a proud mom you are. I

SPEAKER_01: 3:21

certainly am. He was a talented guitar player. He played acoustic, and... the electric guitar, and then when he was an adult, he loved to play frisbee golf. He taught my daughter Brittany and I how to play it. It's something that

SPEAKER_00: 3:37

we

SPEAKER_01: 3:38

enjoy doing together. I

SPEAKER_00: 3:40

have never played that before. It sounds like it might be more fun than traditional golf.

SPEAKER_01: 3:45

It is. It's less frustrating, too, because it's not as hard, so it's way more low-key. and relaxing.

SPEAKER_00: 3:54

Mary, I know that there are a multitude of them, but why don't you share one of your favorite stories about Zach with everybody?

SPEAKER_01: 4:03

My favorite story about Zach is, and I wasn't present with him, but he was playing frisbee golf once with one of his friends and Zach made it at the top of the hill before his friend did. And then when his friend got up to the top of the hill, Zach was sitting in the Frisbee golf basket. And I'm so glad that his friend took a picture of Zach sitting in that basket. And then after Zach got away, then he sent me the picture of him and I just love that picture because he's got this grin on his face and it's just such a Zach face.

SPEAKER_00: 4:40

He was one of those people that walked into a room and it just lit up and he probably, I'm guessing from what it sounds like, he probably was sometimes often the center of attention.

SPEAKER_01: 4:51

Well, he actually wasn't. No, when he was one-on-one, he was very talkative. But when he was in a crowd, he was very quiet. Yeah, he was kind of shy. So when he was in a group of people, he tended to just be more of a listener than a talker. And he usually was, well, and you know, his friends sometimes tell a different story, but from how I knew him, When there was a group of people, he was pretty quiet. I

SPEAKER_00: 5:23

believe that you told me from a previous conversation that you and I had that he also loved doing impersonations. Yeah, what was your favorite?

SPEAKER_01: 5:32

He certainly did. He did a Billy Bob or Sling Blade. One other that he was really good at was... Chip from... Now

SPEAKER_00: 5:41

I can't remember. It's okay. It's okay. Now I can't remember the movie. But he loved entertaining people by doing impersonations. Well, another thing that he and Ryan had in common. Oh, yeah. Ryan loved doing impersonations, especially of Jim Carrey. You know, I think it's kind of a... It goes without being said, but, you know, when we lose a child, regardless of their age and regardless of how it happened... You know, it really profoundly affects us as individuals. As you look back over these past four years, how would you say that losing Zach and the grief that you have suffered through has changed you? I

SPEAKER_01: 6:22

would say the biggest change in me is that I've become a more compassionate person. I feel so much more for somebody that is suffering physically or emotionally. And when I meet somebody who has lost a loved one, especially a child, it just saddens me so much. When it's a child, I just feel an instant bond and care and concern for them.

SPEAKER_00: 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:52

And it just breaks my heart. You

SPEAKER_00: 6:53

hear that a lot when you're talking with a parent who's lost a child.

UNKNOWN: 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:59

when they meet other bereaved parents, it's like there's this instant bond. It's hard to explain to somebody else, but I think it probably has something to do with when people have a shared trauma in their life, You know, we hear it a lot from men and women who were in combat with others who were in close proximity that they were in a firefight with or they were in a campaign where you really were close together. You experienced a lot of serious trauma and death together. Sometimes it creates lifelong bonds. So I think maybe that has something to do with it. I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 7:37

I think so, because so many of the feelings that we have are the same feelings that another bereaved parent has. And no one really understands how we feel as much as other bereaved parents do. I feel like we've all suffered some type of a level of PTSD. And so maybe that's why, just because we You know, if we just meet somebody, even if they know us, I mean, actually, if we meet somebody and we described our feelings, I don't think they'd be able to really realize truly how we feel just by our words. And even the people that know us very well don't really understand how we feel because you don't you can't even imagine what it's like.

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

Sometimes it's frustrating because you after we after we suffer that loss, you know, we don't want people to forget that. Our child, it becomes part of our identity. And, you know, you you want people to understand what you're going through. But in another sense, we wouldn't want them to understand what we're going through because it means you have to have experienced it. So, you know, it's kind of a kind of a fine line to walk in it. You know, we we have to be what I've learned. And I'm sure you're still learning, too. is that, you know, we have to give a lot of grace to other people because sometimes they will say things intending to help and wanting to help us feel better. And it actually ends up backfiring. And sometimes it can make us actually feel worse. So we have to give a lot of grace. Yes, we do. Grace and space. That's good.

SPEAKER_01: 9:24

I didn't make that up. I can't remember where I heard. But although I mean, some people feel differently about this, but For me, I would rather have somebody say something that's the wrong thing to say, just as long as they weren't being hurtful towards me. Because I'd rather have someone, you know, at least communicating with me about my grief or my loss, instead of avoiding me or ignoring me or not even bringing up my feelings at all. So I have really had to use a lot of grace because I don't even like to let people know when they've hurt my feelings because then I don't want them to not talk to me anymore or to feel like they're or to have them feel like they're walking.

SPEAKER_00: 10:09

Yeah, absolutely. And I concur with you. It would it would be better to err on the side of sometimes just showing up. And if you don't know what to say. Just offer the gift of your presence. And even silence is absolutely fine sometimes. If you don't know what to say, it's okay not to say anything. And if we want to talk, we'll talk. But if we don't, just, you know, don't take it personally if you're that other person. Because it's not about you. It's not, you know, we're upset with you because you came. Most of us are absolutely thankful and thrilled that you cared enough to show up. We're not a project that you need to try to fix. There aren't any words that are really going to help that much. And honestly, I don't know about you, Mary, but those first few weeks, chances are you're not going to remember much of what anybody said anyway.

SPEAKER_01: 11:06

Definitely. I don't really even remember much of my very first year. When we... have people that come to us and are just silent, but just being there, either listening to us or just sitting beside us, I think that seems to be the most helpful. We just need to have them to feel like they are thinking of us, that they love us, that they care for us, and just being present with us. And I've often told other people that even if they go to somebody, that they should never give them to give them advice or or even talk about bible verses in the beginning because that person if they're a newly bereaved person they don't want to hear that type of thing they can't comprehend that and i think that's going to turn them off more than than just just you being there

SPEAKER_00: 12:03

we know that the support that you're referring to often comes in a variety of forms I don't know about in Indiana, but in the South, anytime something like that happens, Southerners show up with food, comfort food and lots of it. Sometimes there's no room to keep all that you couldn't eat. And there's other forms too. I would just, I just want to ask you from your own personal experience, what was the kind of support that really meant the most to you that helped you the most?

SPEAKER_01: 12:36

I think the people, okay. So my son passed away December of 2020. It was kind of thick into the COVID time. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and we here in Northwest Indiana weren't doing a whole lot. Most of the businesses were closed. The schools were closed. Oh, wait a minute. I think the schools were opened back up again by then.

SPEAKER_00: 13:01

A lot of things were closed, for

SPEAKER_01: 13:03

sure. And then after my son passed away... I was kind of like more, even using that more of an excuse. And we weren't socializing at that time because of COVID still, because, you know, we didn't know. We didn't really know much about COVID back then. But I think the things that helped me the most was the podcasts, listening to the podcasts, because I started learning, listening to those early on. I don't have a lot of family, except for my family in this area. But I did have friends that stopped over, which was very nice. And I really appreciated that. I appreciated Zach's friends reaching out to me and wanting to meet me over at the cemetery to talk about him, which was really nice. I ended up having, well, I shouldn't say having to. I got to. I was blessed to be able to write 150 thank yous. People that shown me so much, so many different, you know, you know, it was from meals or gifts that they had sent in the mail or broad or gift cards. It was amazing how many people, not only my friends and acquaintances, but some that were total strangers. And it was so beautiful how those people thought of me, not only at that time, but throughout the first year and still to this day. And it's just amazing how Jesus works for people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:43

And it does mean so much. You know, you were talking about how so many of Zach's friends reached out to you. You know, I can remember that happening with Kathy and me after we lost Ryan. And boy, I'll tell you, those friends have no idea. how much that meant because we felt like that was another piece of Ryan because he was friends with these people and they loved him enough that they cared about us and reached out to us. Man, it just thrilled our hearts to see that kind of love and compassion towards him and then towards us.

SPEAKER_01: 15:19

Yes, yes. And it amazed me how some of these kids in their late 20s and early 30s just fell apart over at the cemetery when I met up with them. And how, you know, it was, I don't know, it just, to see a grown young man cry like that, it was, I mean, I just... I felt so bad for them, but then also it made me feel so good inside knowing that someone loved my son that deeply. It was just amazing. And these kids showed up at the cemetery for his first birthday a month after Zach's death because he turned 27 the following, well, January 27th. And then there were like 15 of them there. And my daughter and I both went and joined all of them that night. And it was so nice because they told so many Zach stories. My daughter and I never heard, even though she hung around some of the same kids that Zach was friends with. It was fun, you know, to listen to all the things that they had to talk about. It was really, it was really, it was really fun. And also it made me so much more proud because they all Yeah. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:02

And maybe sometimes they become closer than family.

SPEAKER_01: 17:05

I think that's

SPEAKER_00: 17:06

how it goes. Yeah. Yes, I agree. And isn't it cool to hear stuff like that, you know, that you've never heard before? And it's, you know, when you heard those things about Zach that his friend shared, it gave you some joy right there in the middle of your grief. I'm guessing you were able, from your response, you were able to laugh for a few minutes and just think of all the the incredible things about Zach's life, because you're so overwhelmed with their death and the sadness of it all for so long. It's such a relief when you can actually laugh again. And it's something that you can laugh about regarding your child and probably something you would laugh about in his presence and that probably he would have laughed about.

SPEAKER_01: 17:53

Exactly. Exactly. And I think God allows us numbness to gradually, I mean, in the beginning it's awful, but I think God numbs our pain and, you know, from time to time allows us not to feel the pain on a continuous basis. Just, I don't know, just, I think it's, well, I think it's the shock, but I think God allows us to have that shock so that we can not have to be down in that valley forever. The whole time. That's really, I mean, that joy that we're feeling. Absolutely. That's given to us by God. And all of those people that loved our boys, when they're helping us through that, God is in them, allowing their love to come. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 18:44

What are some of the things or what's something? I mean, that's one thing that you just shared. But sometimes when we go through something so painful, just unspeakable. I don't know of a better word to describe losing a child. If we have a relationship with God already, when we go through things like that, if we lean into Him instead of running away, because sometimes we, let's face it, when things like that happen, we get angry with God because we think either, how could you let this happen? Why did you cause this to happen? And the questions just go on and on and on. But when we realize, you know, that it broke God's heart too when Zach died. And God was right there with you guys in the middle of all of that. And I'm guessing that you probably knew so many things about him through your relationship with him for years, Mary. Is there anything that you learned about God over these past four years that you didn't know? before losing Zach.

SPEAKER_01: 19:53

Yes. I have always believed that God is a source of comfort, love, and peace. But since Zach's passing, I have not only believed that, but I've also physically felt God's comfort, love, and peace. Three days after Zach passed away, So it was December 28th of 2020. When I woke up in the morning, my husband was reading his morning devotion. And I leaned over his shoulder and looked to see what his devotion was for that morning. And it was Psalm 147, verse 3. He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds. And I read the devotion and it talked about how brokenness is is a reality and makes you feel powerless to do anything. But God blesses us with his overflowing comfort and helps us in our healing from heartache and pain. So when I read that, I felt like it was written for me. And then my husband realized the effect it had on me. So he suggested that I listen to Barn 45, which was a morning Bible study that I had listened to every morning, Monday through Friday, on Facebook Live, and it's also on YouTube. So I watched it that morning, and the specific Bible study that they had on that morning was Psalm 23, The Lord is My Shepherd. They talked about how a shepherd is a guardian and protector, all that the sheep need. A shepherd gives the sheep breast, and he leads the sheep, just like God is our guardian and protector. all that we need, give us rest, and he leads us. Again, I felt like this hour-long Bible study was created just for me. They talked about how you may have never been in this level of alone before, but Jesus is our shepherd and will guide us no matter what horrible circumstances you're going through right now, and that Jesus, with his staff, can help to pull us out of that deep, dark pit. And I felt God's peace, presence, and love. It was amazing. That was the first time in my life I had ever felt that. And then I knew that God was going to be able to get me through this. And I might not continuously feel His presence, love, and peace, but at least... I knew that it was possible. And I also learned what it was like to lament and that it was okay

SPEAKER_00: 22:43

to lament. Absolutely. Yeah. And this is three days after you lost Zach.

SPEAKER_01: 22:48

Yes. Yes. That was the 28th, just three days later.

SPEAKER_00: 22:52

And for those of you who are listening and you maybe didn't catch it, Mary lost Zach on Christmas Day of 2020. And You know, I want us to go back and talk a little bit about what led up to that. But before we do, I know there are people that are listening that struggle with different celebrations that are part of our lives throughout the year. Traditions, Christmas, Thanksgiving, our children's birthdays. And You know, the list goes on. I can't imagine what that did to your, I guess, your ability to participate in and to be able to enjoy Christmas going forward like you had previously in your life. How have you guys handled that? I mean, how have you navigated all of

SPEAKER_01: 23:43

that? Well, the very first year, I couldn't. listen to Christmas music at all. Well, actually, I think it was for the first three years. And if I was in a store, I had to leave if there was any Christmas music on. So that pretty much eliminates, you know, going to a store between Thanksgiving and Christmas. And it's the most wonderful time of the year. I still do not like that song. Yeah, it was really difficult. The very first year, I had zero desire to put up our tree. Yeah, sure. And I don't even remember if I participated in any of that. Knowing me, I at least moved ornaments around on the tree where I thought they should look. So we've always had not celebrated Christmas on the actual day because we've always done it on a day other than Christmas because we've allowed our kids to be with their significant others on Christmas Day. So that is a blessing for us. Yes. The very first year we went, we all went over to the cemetery, though, for a couple of hours, took some chairs, went over there, talked about Zach, and had a toast to him. And then the kids all went to their significant others.

SPEAKER_00: 25:21

I ask you that because people that haven't experienced what we have, it doesn't really occur to them that, you know, there is an entire year of of experiencing firsts. You know, first Christmas without our child, first birthday without our child, and so many others. And those can be really hard to navigate. Sometimes the anticipation of that day arriving can actually be more difficult than the day itself. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01: 25:56

I do. I always have more anxiety the day before a holiday than on the actual day. I just read it the day before and especially the night before. I have a very hard time falling asleep the night before because even anticipating seeing that date on my phone, I don't

SPEAKER_00: 26:17

like. I understand that. And I'm sure that probably all of our listeners do as well. Mary, I said a minute ago that I wanted us to come back to that, to come back to something. And that something is, you know, I want us to step back in time four years, because at the outset, when I was welcoming our guests, I mentioned that you guys lost Zach due to complications of asthma. And, you know, that may be a bit baffling to some people, you know, in today's society. world of medicine when we have so many things that make people's lives so much easier and that are life-saving. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what led up to that?

SPEAKER_01: 27:04

Okay, so Zach had asthma since he was about five or six years old. He usually had it when he had a cold or if he used bleach products or if he was out disking and it had rained a lot and there were a high level of mold out in the woods where he was disking. But so... I am unaware that he was sick. I know he had been sick around Halloween time of 2020 because he had to go into a walk-in clinic and they had to give him oxygen and And they had to give him a nebulizer treatment. So I knew two months prior that he had suffered with

SPEAKER_00: 27:50

his asthma. I didn't mean to interrupt, but just for perspective, was Zach living independently of you guys at this point?

SPEAKER_01: 27:57

He was. He was living down in Rockwell, Texas. Oh, and I was asking him, like, after I knew that he had to go into that walk-in clinic, Halloween of 2020, I kept asking him, you know, how are you? Are you okay? Are you okay? Yeah, mom. Yeah, mom. Well, then, you know, by Christmas, I mean, that only lasted like a couple of weeks. So then when I received that phone call on December 2020, I was unaware that he had been sick. And the call was from his father. And he and I had gotten divorced back in 2006. And his dad was living down there and Zach had moved down there a couple years prior to see if he could have a closer relationship with his dad because his dad had moved down there while Zach was in middle school. So his dad found him in his apartment, deceased. Zach was sitting in a sitting position on his couch. And when someone is suffering from asthma symptoms, If they are either standing or sitting or even elevated, like laying down elevated, it helps to keep their airways opened. Because when they're lying flat, it sometimes causes fluids to pool in their airways, which makes their breathing more difficult. And also asthma causes inflammation and it constricts airways. Right. Right. Right. confusion, drowsiness, fatigue, and also a lack of consciousness. So with that continuous decrease in low blood oxygen levels, somebody can pass away in as little

SPEAKER_00: 30:08

as four to six minutes. Did Zach have a rescue inhaler?

SPEAKER_01: 30:11

He did not have a rescue inhaler at that time, but he did have a nebulizer. So when his dad walked into his apartment, his nebulizer machine was still running, but the medicine mist had already come out of the mouthpiece and Zach had already inhaled it. And I'm not sure. Sometimes Zach had to use two breathing treatments. And I'm not sure if he used one or two. I didn't ask his dad about that. So I'm not really sure about that. But his dad did say that his nebulizer machine was still running.

SPEAKER_00: 30:50

It had just run out of the medication that was in it. Gosh. And he was how old?

SPEAKER_01: 30:55

26.

SPEAKER_00: 30:56

So young.

SPEAKER_01: 30:58

Yes, so young. And I think, you know, because of that, Confusion, drowsiness, the loss of consciousness. I think that's why he may have been, you know, unaware of the severity of his situation. Yeah. And his need to call 911.

SPEAKER_00: 31:14

Well, Mary, you know, we've talked a lot about how grief impacted you. And we've talked a little of what that grief journey is like. But I know that there are other moms, maybe dads listening today, too, that are earlier. in their grief journey, like you were four years ago, three years ago. And they may be wondering, is this what life is going to be like going forward? Is this the best that I can expect? Am I always going to be struggling with such difficulty with my emotions and with grief brain and just feeling so alone and isolated? Let's talk about what that grief journey is like now in 2025, and some things that you've done that have helped get you to the place where you are now. I know that from our conversations previously and today, that I know that you would point to your relationship with the Lord as being your foundation for that healing process. Is there anything else that that you would share to offer some hope and encouragement to those that are listening?

SPEAKER_01: 32:33

Yes. I have gotten so much help through being in bereaved parent support groups. also listening to worship music, participating in ongoing Bible book studies. I belong to a virtual mother support group through Starlight Ministries out of Grand Rapids, Michigan, which we meet once a week, and I don't know what I would do.

SPEAKER_00: 32:59

Is that Marcy Larson's part of her ministry?

SPEAKER_01: 33:02

It is. It is Marcy's. And she does the Always Andy's Mom podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 33:09

Yeah, actually, Andy's

SPEAKER_01: 33:11

Mom.

SPEAKER_00: 33:12

Both Marcy and her husband, Eric, were guests on our podcast back, I don't know, a year and a half or so ago.

SPEAKER_01: 33:19

Yes, yes. And, you know, when I listened to your podcast and I heard Marcy and Peter, is it?

SPEAKER_00: 33:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 33:28

Oh, Peter's her other son. When I listened to them and she talked about Starlight Ministries, I was like, I wrote that down and then I listened to the remaining podcast with her. And then the next day I emailed Starlight Ministries. 2024, which I actually listened to it, but you had recorded it. That's right. Maybe in 23. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 33:49

she has a great podcast. I would encourage anybody who would like to check out that podcast to do so because, you know, Marcy and her husband experienced the loss of a young child and she and her husband both are physicians. So it's a great podcast, another great source of hope and encouragement.

SPEAKER_01: 34:08

Yes, yes. Yours and hers. And while we're waiting, got me through every night. For three years, I listened to those. And I mean, those aren't for everybody. I know some people, especially early in grief, have a difficult time. But for me, and for a lot of people that I know, they're so comforting. By listening to those people that you interview, we can realize that how we can recover, we can get through this, we can survive it. There is hope. that we can get through the worst.

SPEAKER_00: 34:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to touch on this and I hope you'll display your good sense of humor. When I initially contacted you about sharing your story, you were hesitant. And I understand that because that was probably almost a year ago. And I get that. I probably couldn't have done it at that stage of grief, of our grief journey. It wasn't, I don't know, maybe several months later when you discovered Marcy's podcast, you got an invitation from her. And you just, I remember you felt so inadequate. You shared that with me, that you felt inadequate about sharing your story. You worried about a lot of different things, but you prayed about it. And, you know, I'm so proud of you, as I know that Marcy is too, that you allowed God To use your pain and the difficulty and the challenge of being willing to open up to in a public arena, as it were, on a podcast to people that you didn't know. And you stepped out in faith and you displayed a lot of courage and you shared your story. And I listened to that podcast that you did with Marcy. I would have never, ever thought that you felt any pain. anxiety or nervousness about sharing your story. And I say that to encourage other people, because here you are doing it again. And I think it's so important because as you said a minute ago, I think we connect at a heart level when we share, when people hear a story, they're hearing that another parent who's been through what I've been through is actually talking about it. You connect at a level that you couldn't connect with information about grief or information about loss and how you survive all of that. So I would encourage you if you're listening and you haven't had the opportunity to do that, when you have an opportunity to share your story, step out in faith and share it because you have no idea what difference you might make in the life of of another bereaved parent. What would you say about that, Mary?

SPEAKER_01: 36:59

I agree so much. And I, you know, with Marcy, I think I may have felt, well, and also I had told you, I don't know if you remember this when you had contacted me initially, that I, that Marcy, I, she had already, you know, I was in her, well, yeah, I was in her group. So I had already said, and I felt, you know, An obligation to Marcy because she had said to our group, if anybody wants to get on the podcast, and I said, okay, when I'm ready. But yes, I felt like if I reach even one person and help one person out there with anything that I have to say, it's worth it. And there might be somebody out there that doesn't know about, you know, the Starlight Ministries or while we're

SPEAKER_00: 37:51

waiting. Yes, that is Jill and Brad Sullivan. Yep. It is a great podcast. Great resource.

SPEAKER_01: 37:59

Yes. And they have retreats and they have a Facebook group and Our Hearts Are Home with Gary and Laura House. They also have a podcast now. They just started it about 15 months ago, I think. And they have a ministry with book studies and conferences twice a year. And they have a grandparents group and a siblings group. And I mean, they just have a lot. And if somebody were to get on Our Hearts Are Home, they could find all of the wonderful things that are available through there. They have an ongoing book study, I think, all the time. Right now we're doing... with Vinita Reisner, Desperate for Hope, which

SPEAKER_00: 38:45

I know you had on your podcast. She's a sweet lady.

SPEAKER_01: 38:48

She's gone through a lot of suffering. The thing that I would say that helped me, oh, another thing, reading a blog written by Melanie DeSimone has really helped me. Sermons that I have listened to about grief, loss, and sorrow by pastors Greg Laurie, Levi Lusko and for all.

SPEAKER_00: 39:13

That's important, too. I'm glad that you said that, Mary, because sometimes the focus can sometimes seems like it primarily for moms. But, you know, dads struggle with grief as well. And I think that has has been changing over the years. I think more men are stepping up and sharing their stories and opening up to talk about it, which is very important in the healing processes. Once we start. talking about it, sharing our story, whether it's one-on-one or in a group or on a podcast, however it is, it really helps tremendously to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 39:49

Yes. And I just listened to your most recent, your two most recent podcasts, and it was so interesting to hear the different perspectives of the wife

SPEAKER_00: 40:00

and then the

SPEAKER_01: 40:01

mother and then the father.

SPEAKER_00: 40:03

Because we grieve differently as individuals, but we grieve very differently as men and women, so differently as moms and dads. And it's important to be able to respect how our mate is grieving. And if they don't grieve like we do, that's okay. It's not that that one of you is right and the other is wrong. It's just different. And as we know, there is no right or wrong way to grieve.

SPEAKER_01: 40:32

Yeah. That reminds me, I, I like to tell newly bereaved parents that whatever, however they grieve and whatever decision they make is the right decision because it's their grief journey. And yeah, They should never feel pressured to do anything that someone thinks that they should do.

SPEAKER_00: 40:55

Thank you for sharing that. I think that is very important. Don't let anybody else tell you how you should be grieving. That is your personal grief journey. Now, there certainly are healthy and unhealthy ways to grieve. And when it starts, maybe if there are signs that you are moving in an unhealthy direction or you feel like maybe your mate is stuck, that may be what is known as prolonged grief disorder. And that may need the help from either a counselor or a medical professional, maybe intervention with antidepressants or some sort of therapy. And there's no weakness in that. Yes, definitely. There's wisdom and there is strength in knowing when you need help and are willing to get it.

SPEAKER_01: 41:47

Yes, I agree. No one should ever feel bad or embarrassed about having to get on antidepressants because

SPEAKER_00: 41:55

they help a lot of people. I'll be the first to say that six months after we lost Ryan, I started an antidepressant and have been on and off of them at various times over the past almost 10 years.

SPEAKER_01: 42:11

Yes, I just went on one. And here I am four years into my grief journey. I just went on one the end of January. But along with my grief, I had a broken foot and I had depression from being immobile on top of my grief.

SPEAKER_00: 42:30

Like Mary just said, there is no shame in and needing help and asking for it whether it be through a medication or counseling or something else. Mary, it has been such a treat to have you on our podcast today. I know that there is somebody listening today that you will have had an impact on as they hear you share about your journey over the past four years and what God's done in the healing process and how you've handled some of those challenges that you've faced. And I just, for one, want to say thank you again for being so transparent and honest about what you've experienced. And I want to just say I applaud your courage. for opening up to people, literally, maybe in another country who are listening today, who needed to hear exactly what you shared. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01: 43:28

Thank you so much, Greg. It's been such an honor, such an honor. And I do want to, I just want to mention one thing very quickly. My grief brain remembered the name of the movie that Zach imitated Chip on.

SPEAKER_00: 43:40

I remember we talked about that in our conversation a few weeks ago. And And that was a hilarious movie, I suppose, if you were 15 years old, because my son and daughter loved that movie.

SPEAKER_01: 43:56

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00: 43:57

Maybe. Well, I'm glad you remembered that. Well, Mary, thank you again. You have been a blessing.

SPEAKER_01: 44:05

As have you, Greg. Thank you so, so much. And thank you so much for reaching so many hurting

SPEAKER_00: 44:11

hearts through your podcast. We give all the credit to the Lord. And from my perspective, it is absolutely a privilege.

SPEAKER_01: 44:18

Thank

SPEAKER_00: 44:18

you.