Leaning on Faith And Community After Losing Annie, with Cheri Fletcher

Thirteen days can change an entire family’s history. We sit down with Cheri Fletcher to remember her daughter Annie, a 29-year-old singer-songwriter, social worker, and photographer whose sudden decline ended in an unthinkable goodbye. With honesty and tenderness, Cheri walks us through what it’s like to lose an adult child to an aggressive cancer she did not even know was there, and how shock lingers long after the hospital. 

We also get practical about what grief really does. Cheri describes grief brain, the fog that makes reading hard and memory unreliable, the physical exhaustion that settles into daily life, and the way fear can spike when another loved one is late to return a call. We talk marriage and family dynamics, why counseling can help couples grieve in different ways without turning on each other, and how giving space and grace becomes a daily decision. 

A major thread is faith in suffering. When prayer feels impossible, Cheri shares how God met her through friends who kept sending scripture and personalized prayers, and how she learned to see God’s presence without minimizing pain. She also offers a perspective that stopped her in my tracks: God misses watching Annie too. 

Finally, we dig into the moment so many people dread: “I don’t know what to say.” Cheri created “Beyond I Don’t Know What To Say” grief cards to help friends and churches show up with courage, ask meaningful questions, and keep a child’s name present. Listen regularly for more hope-filled conversations, and share this with someone walking through loss, and leave a review so more grieving families can find this support.

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Transcript

Welcome And A Hope-Filled Story

Speaker 1 0:49

Welcome back. I'm Greg Buffkin, your host, and we're so glad you could join us today to hear a hope-filled and encouraging conversation that I recently had with Cheri Fletcher. As she shares the story of her sweet daughter Annie and tragically losing her to cancer after a short battle in August of 2023 at the very young age of 29. We'll talk about how such an unthinkably traumatic loss affects parents physically, mentally, and spiritually, as well as the importance of community in our healing process. You'll also hear Cheri talk about the importance of letting God into our grief and suffering that we really weren't designed to process and experience alone. And now here's my conversation with Cherri. Well, Cheri welcome to our podcast. It's great to have you with us today.

Speaker 1:43

I am so excited to be here and talk to you. Yeah, I'm just looking forward to our conversation.

Speaker 1 1:48

Yeah, I've been looking forward to it as well. Why don't you take a minute or two and just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, about your family, and then we'll just dive into your story.

Speaker 1:59

Thank you. Right, yeah, right before we came on, we were discussing how I moved from Washington State to Tennessee in 2020. So my husband and I got the call for his job, and we weren't quite sure about that. You know, native, well, not native, but 30 years in Washington. And then to move to Tennessee was going to be quite the thing, especially in 2020. But we made that move and we know exactly why, as we will, I'll talk about it in a little bit. But

Cheri’s Move And Family Life

Speaker 2:27

so we've been out this way almost six years, and we really loved the Tennessee area. One of our sons moved with us, and his words were, I'll finish my online degree because it's 2020, everything went online, and then I'm going back to Seattle. I'm not going to live in Tennessee, but the Lord, you know, we love it. He had different plans, and my son met his future wife here, and so they're here. He got married, and they're here. Yep, yep. And then my youngest son, he and his wife just moved from Portland, Oregon to Chapel Hill. UN he's getting his master's at UNC. And um, yeah, so they are out in North Carolina now. So we're all on the same time zone, and that just makes me so happy.

Speaker 1 3:09

Yeah. And so your younger son is just a couple hours away from us here in South Carolina.

Speaker 3:15

Yeah. Yeah, he loves it out there.

Speaker 1 3:17

Yeah. So now in Tennessee, where you guys are located, are you in the mountains?

Speaker 3:22

Uh, well, you know, again, I'm from Seattle, so a mountain to me is like 14,000 feet.

Speaker 2 3:29

Yeah, I yeah.

Speaker 3:30

I'm in the hills. No, um, so I'm in I'm in Chattanooga area, so I can get to I can get to get I can get to, you know, the national park, Gatlinburg, it's beautiful out there in about an hour and a half. Okay. And it's beautiful. The Smoky Mountains are beautiful, so not too far.

Speaker 1 3:47

Indeed, they are. That the Gatlinburg area is a beautiful part of Tennessee for sure. I've never been to Cleveland, but I'm sure it's a very nice place to live as well.

Speaker 3:57

It's very it we love it. It is beautiful.

Speaker 1 3:59

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that with us, Cherry. Why don't we just kind of transition over and talk about your sweet daughter Annie? You guys tragically lost her to cancer just really three years ago. So this is this, it hasn't been long at all. And she was only 29 years old. So what I would love for you to do is just to introduce our listeners to Annie and tell us just anything that you would like to tell us as her mom, and maybe share a couple of uh, you know, of just really some sweet personal memories that you have with her.

Speaker 4:41

Yeah, absolutely. Everyone loves talking about their kids, right?

Speaker 1 4:44

Yes.

Speaker 4:44

Yeah. So Annie was our oldest and our only daughter, and she passed away in August of 2023.

Meeting Annie

Speaker 4:51

So we are coming up on the third year. We did not know she had cancer, and she did not know she had cancer. So that I guess could be a blessing in a way.

Speaker 1 5:01

Yeah, I can understand that. I mean, it's kind of a double-edged sword, right?

Speaker 5:06

Mm-hmm. The doctors reassured us that even if we had known that the kind she had was so aggressive that it probably she probably only had it for about a year and a half max. Mm-hmm. And that it was a kind of colorectal cancer that just it's like a burner cancer. It just starts and goes. And they Yeah.

Speaker 1 5:30

So was it at at that point that it when it was diagnosed, had it been asymptomatic up to that point?

Speaker 5:37

Well, so we didn't even have a diagnosis till after she passed away. Oh. Mm-hmm. We didn't know. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So looking back, yes, there were some symptoms, but at 29, she's just going, Oh, I'm I'll I'm gonna go see a doctor. I just have to do these things, and then I'll go see a doctor. And as a mom of a 29-year-old, you there's only so much you can do. Uh sure. So they the my daughter and I share the same quality in Grit and Barrett. And it's gonna t it I have to almost be losing a limb to take an Advil. And so she, I'm guessing she probably didn't feel great, but she was on track. She was a music singer-songwriter in Nashville. She was a social worker, and she was working on getting her own business license for her photography business.

Speaker 1 6:26

So Wow, very versatile.

Speaker 6:29

So she was like, okay, I'm gonna get my license and I'm gonna get my business started, and then, mom, I'm gonna have time to get my doctors lined up and get, you know, get all these things figured out. So yeah.

Speaker 1 6:41

It's what we do at 29, right?

Speaker 6:43

Yeah. Yeah. You don't think you have colorectal cancer at 29.

Speaker 1 6:47

Well, most of us in our 20s think we're bulletproof to begin with.

Speaker 6:51

Exactly. Yes. She yeah, she just had we just had two weeks from the time she called, said she wasn't feeling well till she passed away. It was 13 days.

Speaker 1 7:01

That that is just I hardly have any words to express how that makes me feel, thinking that there were only 13 days between going, I guess going into the hospital and and you guys losing her. I guess just it's unimaginable.

Speaker 7:21

Yes, it is unimaginable. It yeah, I think losing a child of all all in any way you lose them is unimaginable as yeah, without question. For sure. But Annie and I were I was not as good of a singer as Annie, but we were both singers and we did a lot of singing together, which I am

Thirteen Days And A Hidden Cancer

Speaker 7:39

so thankful for to have those videos and those moments. Her dad is a singer, and her brother is guitar, and then my youngest did some drums. So we had some good praise teams, and we did some Annie and I did some stuff for our church for Easter productions together, and we both had spontaneous kitchen dancing moments. So we have fun videos of those.

Speaker 1 8:05

That sounds like something fun for a mom and her daughter.

Speaker 8:08

Yeah. So she would often not want my advice, but then I would get a random phone call from a friend that said, Annie told me I could call her mom and ask this question. So I feel like, okay, maybe there's times that she didn't want my advice, but she thought it was useful. So I'd get a phone call from a random friend sometimes asking my advice.

Speaker 1 8:27

So I'm thankful.

Speaker 8:29

I'm thankful for those memories and those moments.

Speaker 1 8:32

I'm sure. I'm sure you are. But did you guys have any favorite trips that you took together?

Speaker 8:40

A lot that a lot of them, but probably our most favorite was when she graduated from um high school, we took a European trip. And really? Where did you go? Yeah, we went to Italy and Sweden, Swit or Switzerland. Wow. And we only had a certain amount of time, and it was right at the end of August, and it was so hot, it was just we were dying. No, we didn't do Spain then, so it was Switzerland and Italy, and we we just remember laying in hotel rooms that told us they had air conditioning, but they didn't. And it we were just so incredibly hot, but we would jump in any water we could find.

Speaker 2 9:19

Wow.

Speaker 9:20

We did ziplining off of Alps in Switzerland and just having fun. You know, the the Europeans they just love to dance and eat. So we just had a great time dancing and eating.

Speaker 1 9:32

Well, I bet you did find some good food over there.

Speaker 9:35

Yes, it was very good.

Speaker 1 9:37

Wow. And you don't expect really to go to Europe and find it to be that hot, do you? Especially with Switzerland. Yeah, well, the Alps were cold, but Yeah, well, you when you're up way up in the mountains, yeah.

Speaker 9:49

Yeah. But the rest was very hot. So Wow.

Speaker 1 9:53

Well, what a sweet memory. You know, when you when you lose a child, you know, as you said a few minutes ago, it it truly is an unthinkable and an unspeakable experience that nobody else could possibly understand. And, you know, we really wouldn't want them to understand because it means they would have to live it too. Was there anything in your life up to that point, Cherry, that that you could lean on or draw from that that helped you as you started as the reality started settling in and you had to start processing this?

Speaker 10:29

Well, there's a lot. There's a lot. And when I talk about it, I try to tell people I'm not minimizing my pain. Right. Sometimes when you start talking about how God did things to help alleviate, He didn't eliminate.

Speaker 1 10:45

Exactly. Good differentiation.

Speaker 10:48

Yeah. And so it can sound like, oh, I'm not in pain because God did these things. And I'm like, no. But

Seeing God Go Before You

Speaker 10:55

you know, one verse that has really stuck out to me is Deuteronomy 31.8. The Lord goes before you. And I started seeing things almost literally, to be honest, I I started seeing things in the hospital that that God after I started looking back, finding the ways that God had gone before me.

Speaker 2 11:16

Right.

Speaker 11:17

I started seeing things like, oh wow, look what God orchestrated here and look what he orchestrated here, knowing what was coming up. And I could see all these things that God orchestrated. Ike having us move to Tennessee in 2020, we did not want to move. We did not want to. We kept asking God to nope, God show us a different sign, and he would. Nope, God show us a different sign, and he would. Moving to Tennessee, Annie was already here.

Speaker 1 11:46

Okay, okay.

Speaker 11:46

And so moving here, we got to spend the last three years of her life with her. And when she called me on that Friday and said, Mom, I'm coughing up blood. I was able to meet her at the ER. I know my daughter. If I still was in Seattle, she would not have called and she would have not gone to the ER. And the doctors, she she was in, at that time, she was in active right heart failure because the the cancer had gotten into her bloodstream and filled up her lungs. And so she was her oxygen was being cut off. And the doctor said she would have died in she would have died in her sleep that night. So goodness. I I see, and and because of that, my boys were able to come and even though they weren't aware of it, they were able to say goodbye, even though they they didn't know that's what they were saying.

Speaker 2 12:40

Yeah.

Speaker 12:40

But I look at all these things and I'm like, okay, God God aligned these things, and I feel that but I have I being aware of that. Right. Um because in my I used to have a podcast prior to Annie.

Speaker 1 12:56

Right, right. I remember we talked about that in a previous conversation.

Speaker 13:00

And God asked me to pause that podcast in January of 2023, and I didn't want to, but he made it very clear through you know, several different messages, even one from a phone call, a friend called and said, I don't know why, but God keeps putting on my heart that you're supposed to pause your podcast. I said, Well, I guess I'm supposed to pause my podcast. And the final episode was in January, or I'm sorry, June. And then she passed in August. So one of the questions I would ask my guests is to look back over their life, how far back can you go and see the purpose you're living out today and who you've always been. And so I thought, wow, here's God, you know, have me look back, not to not on the purpose of my life, but to look back and see all the ways he's gone before me and put these things in place.

Speaker 1 13:49

Yeah. And those are things that you really can only see in retrospect, right?

Speaker 13:54

Right.

Speaker 1 13:54

Yes. Yeah. I mean, you can't see it as God's orchestrating it, but that's the knowing if you if you are in a relationship with Jesus, you know that God is always orchestrating and moving and doing things that we can't see or hear or feel or touch, but he's always moving in the background. Sometimes it's in ways that we can see, but even when we can't see it or hear it or feel it, he is at work and he's orchestrating what he already has designed for us. And some, you know, we live in a broken world and bad things happen to good people, bad things happen to godly people. Does God design that? No. Does he allow it sometimes? Yes. And it's hard to understand why sometimes, but we know that he has a greater purpose and and he will use those things to bring good into our lives and maybe good into the lives of other people. Cherry, had you ever experienced grief prior to to losing Annie?

Speaker 15:05

You know, I I thought I had.

Speaker 1 15:07

Yeah.

Speaker 15:08

You know, of course, you know, we lose a grandparent and stuff. In 2020, and I I won't go into all of it, but in 2020, everyone knows COVID, but it was our nursing home that that the world will tell you was the epicenter of COVID. So if you click, if you Google epicenter of COVID, Kirkland, Washington, all the images that come up are us. And really? Yes.

Speaker 1 15:35

Can you go into that a little more deeply?

Speaker 15:41

Yeah. So I was in California at a writer's conference, and my husband called and said, uh, we have a patient that's they're telling us is testing positive for that

When Past Storms Shape Grief

Speaker 15:53

that coronavirus thing. Well, and that's very funny.

Speaker 1 15:57

Did you guys own the the the facility?

Speaker 16:01

So he works he works for the company that owns the company. Gotcha. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 16:06

Okay. Okay.

Speaker 16:07

Mm-hmm. But he's worked for the company for 36 years. Okay. And so he was managing he was man he was managing the whole western half of that company's nursing homes. So he was managed. So he wasn't directly working in that nursing home, but he was managing that one.

Speaker 1 16:23

And so if I understand this correctly, this was like the first diagnosis of COVID.

Speaker 16:29

That's what that's what they'll tell you. That's what they want. That's what that's what they're doing.

Speaker 1 16:33

Yeah, that's what they want us to know.

Speaker 16:35

Yeah. So that's all over the news and all the images and all of that was us. And so my husband had to go up there. And of course, once he went up there, he couldn't come home. And staff is just leaving, not showing up. Residents are just passing away like crazy. We're getting blamed. There's stuff that the news is not telling you. Imagine that. Yeah. And stuff that they are is guess what? Not true. And my husband has everyone on him, like the president, centers for disease control, everyone. Not only that, he's got all the hospitals and nursing homes watching him. Like, what do we do? Because it's coming our way. What do we do?

Speaker 1 17:17

Wow.

Speaker 17:18

So and then he didn't want to come home because the the media would follow workers home, trying to find out where they live, and then like want to talk to them. So he wouldn't come home, but I'm home alone. So I would shut my curtains and stuff because he was like, they're trying to find out where people live and get cameras into their homes. Like they would show up with cameras and try to zoom in near windows.

Speaker 1 17:42

What a nightmare.

Speaker 17:44

Yeah. So that was scary. Very scary time. And then my son at that at that time was in a car accident, the one that had to move here with us. That's why he had to move here with us. He was almost killed.

Speaker 1 17:57

My goodness.

Speaker 17:57

And my daughter tore her ACL and had to have surgery and all of that. And then we had six weeks to move because the company wanted him to come here and help them with all their nursing homes with COVID. So it was just a whirlwind. And then I lost well, I didn't lose, but we had to leave our home of 30 years. And I was very active in women's and youth ministry. I didn't get to say goodbye to anybody. Just we had to sell our home. We had a little farm. And it was just, we just had six weeks and had to go. Ugh and and help my son recuperate and help my daughter with her ACL. It just was a it was very hard. And then you come here and I don't know anybody.

Speaker 1 18:39

Yeah. That that almost sounds like one of those perfect storm events in in life.

Speaker 18:45

So I I I do consider that grief, even though it wasn't the loss of a of a life, it was the loss of life as I knew it.

Speaker 1 18:54

Right. And that, you know, grief manifests itself from a lot of different origins.

Speaker 19:01

Yes.

Speaker 1 19:02

And but I I I ask you that question just as a point of reference, because, you know, if you talk to any parent, dependent upon their age, of course, you know, they'll typically, as you said, maybe share that they've experienced a loss of a grandparent, a parent, a friend. But to lose a child is a totally different kind of grief. I know that you would agree with that, and anybody who's listening today probably would as well. I'd like for for us to spend a few minutes talking about the impact that that that that type of grief has on the parents and even surviving siblings, because what people see is the emotional impact. I mean, they they they can observe that, but what they often can't observe and don't hear about, don't even know to ask about is the the physical, the mental, the spiritual impact that it has as well. For you, Cherry, how did that manifest in your life?

Speaker 20:04

Yeah. Well, of course, the mental is, you know, the the what ifs, how did I miss that? What, you know, how I should have forced you to go to the doctor, all the stuff you start doing. And of course, everyone in your immediate family, your

Grief Brain And Spiritual Numbness

Speaker 20:20

husband and your kids, they're gonna, they're gonna have different emotions on different days. So if I'm if I'm on a day where I'm blaming myself, but my husband's on a day where, you know, he's in a different area and we're not we're not on the same zone.

Speaker 2 20:36

Right.

Speaker 20:37

Trying to navigate uh letting him, letting him grieve his way and me grieve my way, and not, and then making sure our boys are okay. And as a mom, you want to fix.

Speaker 2 20:48

Yeah.

Speaker 20:48

And so I'm wanting to make sure that my boys are okay. Thankfully, they have wives that are amazing. So the mental toll is, you know, all the going back to the hospital in your brain. And what did I miss? Are my boys gonna be okay? And of course, I could lose another kid. So my son's driving from North Carolina to here. Does he have, can he just turn on, find friends? And he's like, I'm okay, mom. No, just turn it on. I just, I just need to know you're okay. And, you know, even now, if one of us calls each other and the other person doesn't answer, we text, I'm I'm okay, nothing urgent, because we're freaking out.

Speaker 1 21:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I completely understand that because we're Kathy and I, my wife and I are almost 11 years out. And we have a daughter, and we are hypersensitive to anything that's going on in her life that that concerns us. I think we're probably, like a lot of parents, hyper-vigilant where we normally wouldn't be so much so. We didn't used to be, which I'm I'm sure is what is what you experience as well. And and the other aspect of that, you know, the mental impact that you were just referring to, uh I wanted to ask you about did did you guys experience the the what we refer to as is grief brain?

Speaker 22:10

I was just talking to someone about that yesterday. What are you? Oh, I still have it all the time. It's just like a fog. And, you know, speaking of that aspect in my spiritual, you know, avid reader, and now I can barely I I read so slow, and I will read a paragraph and I'll be like, what did I just read? Or I'll I'll read something and I'll want to tell someone and I'll go, I I read that in where did I read that? And I'm catching myself going, wait, how come I can't remember things? Or I'm just in a fuzzy fog and and I I what's wrong with me? Why can't I get up and just get going? And why am I not? Yeah.

Speaker 2 22:51

For sure.

Speaker 1 22:52

So I'm trying to do I'm trying to discern whether you're talking about you or me.

Speaker 22:57

Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:58

Yes. Because I still experienced that.

Speaker 23:01

Yeah. I well, I think it's something that once you once you have the kind of grief that we have, I think it'll be there. You know, and spiritually, I I remember clearly, I just didn't want to pray, and I didn't want to read my Bible. I would open the app and read the Bible verse of the day, but I just didn't want to. And I I remember, and I still have a friend every day that will send me a Bible verse every day.

Speaker 1 23:27

Does she?

Speaker 23:28

Mm-hmm. And then I have a prayer warrior every Monday that sends a beautiful prayer, and it's it's not a cut and paste because it's personalized for my family and what we're going through. And so it's she and I remember telling God, I just don't, I just can't, I just can't talk right now. I mean, I know you're there. I'm I I have never I've never gotten mad at God. I've gotten mad and yelled, not at him, but yelled, you know, like what's going on, God.

Speaker 1 23:53

Yeah, I get it. I I totally get that.

Speaker 23:55

But I remember saying, I just don't even know I don't even know what to pray. I don't even know if I want to pray. And he said, Don't, don't worry. I got I got it. I'll I'll come to you. I'll come to you. And that's when my friends started texting me the Bible verses and the prayers. And I thought, this is God coming to me, and I I don't have I don't have to. I can just sit and be still and know.

Speaker 1 24:19

Yes, I love that verse. There are similar verses of scripture throughout the the Bible that say that, to be still and know that I'm God. And sometimes that can be so hard. Yeah. I because when I sit still, my my mind just goes in a thousand different directions. And it's hard to it's hard to sit and focus. And I think part of that is the you know, is the grief brain. But it's, you know, it's so encouraging to know that God's okay with that. He's a good father. He's the one who designed us with all the emotions that you know that that we deal with every day. And sometimes when things like this happen, it interrupts relationships. It interrupts our relationship with God. Maybe I shouldn't say relationship. It can interrupt our fellowship with him, manifesting in ways like you were just talking about. I don't want to pray today. I don't know how to pray today. I I I don't know, I don't know how to approach God today because I'm just, I feel lost. And and he's okay with that because he, you know, he understands us better than we understand us. You referred a minute ago to how sometimes your husband Todd would be in a different place in his grief. And you would be in another place. So we know that grief does, as I just said, it affects relationships, the close ones at home with children, with our mates, and with friends. So let's talk a little bit about how that did play out in your life. How, how did it affect your relationship with Todd? And how did it affect your relationship with your other children? Or how does it? Because we're we're only, you know, we're only not even three years out.

Speaker 26:14

Not even three years. We were very lucky. My son's therapist said said,

Marriage And Family Grief Together

Speaker 26:21

You have a clean grief. And I was like, Well, what does that mean? He said, Well, yeah, we we had a still have a family text thread and we're on it almost every day. Just here's a picture of you know sunshine, or we're out taking a walk, and here's this, and silly memes, and just inside jokes. And I love it. So we we, you know, and my three kids had their own, and they, you know, constantly were talking almost every day as well. And so, and I'm not trying to say a perfect family by any means. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah, I understand that. But my one of the therapists that we had, so I we had one and my son has his own, but he one of our therapists lived in the area where Annie passed, and I called him. So when Annie passed, we went straight to a VRBO. We didn't, we were three hours from home, and we didn't want to go home and just wanted to go somewhere. So a friend of ours has a VRBO and they said, just go there. And so we called the therapist and he came over there the next day. Wow. And spent about two and a half hours with our family and just explained all the different things that we could be feeling in the next few weeks, how you know, different reactions, different, you know, anger and all these things, and just said, this is what's coming up ahead, and you guys need to give each other space and grace and don't correct someone and don't let if they're saying stuff that seems like nonsense, just let them say it. And so we we kind of had a little bit of a path that was like, okay, when this happens, this is gonna go forward, or you know, we know it's coming. So you know, it it does affect we're Todd and I are a lot more tired, you know, physically tired a lot. Um, we we have to make a real conscious effort to just go on a date night because we just don't we just don't want to. We went away for the weekend this last weekend, and you know, you you're doing stuff because you feel like, oh, we just need to do this for us, but you kind of would rather just sit home and sleep and yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 28:38

Sometimes being at home as much as you know, uh sounds like with you guys, Kathy and I love to travel, but more than at any other time in our lives, we love coming back home because it's our safe place. It's where we feel most comfortable with each other, and we can just be who we are because we understand each other. Yeah. So, Cherry, how do you how do you allow yourselves as husband and wife to grieve in your own individual ways and at the same time grieve together as a couple and and allow each other that freedom that your counselor spoke about? Because we we know, and I think this is what they were referring to, there is no right or wrong way to grieve. There are certainly healthy and unhealthy ways to grieve. But how did you guys do that?

Speaker 29:35

Counseling.

Speaker 1 29:37

Yeah, yeah, we did that too.

Speaker 29:39

Yeah, you know, my biggest as a griever, I think we even though we need support, we need to extend grace. I just because even my I'm gonna do something wrong, my husband's gonna do something wrong, and people that want to approach us are gonna do something wrong, but it it's not intentional. And if I can constantly think, okay, what my husband just said or did was not intentional. And I I don't know if you felt this way, but I feel kind of like since Annie's passed, I just don't have the time or the energy to get upset about petty things, or if he does stuff that irritates me, I kind of just I'll just kind of go, okay, I don't that was irritating, but I just don't have time for it.

Speaker 1 30:29

No, I don't get that at all. I'm kidding, of course. Oh uh oh my gosh, you know, that's one of the things that I consistently hear grieving parents talk about is how after when when you lose a child and you are on this this this journey that nobody uh could have ever prepared you for, and you think about how it changed your life and how it continues to change your life, because there you live now as there was a before me and there's an after me. And what what we don't have the capacity for on in this in this place in our lives is a lot of small talk, a lot of things that just, as you said, are so petty in comparison to what we have experienced in losing our child and having to live with that in the aftermath and all that that means. So I completely can appreciate what you're saying. Sometimes there are things you just have to let slide off things that you have to give lots of grace about. And and I think after a while it just gets to the point where, you know, it's it's just not that big a deal anymore with things that really do that are, I should say, really are a big deal to other people.

Speaker 31:45

Yeah. And sometimes I feel sometimes I feel sorry that they're that for other people that it's a big deal for them. Cause I want to say it's really that's really not a big deal. Yeah, right. But you know, as one of the things, again, I'm not I'm this is through counseling. Grieving can become, and also Dr. Lee Warren talked about this too in one of his podcasts. Grieving can become selfish.

Speaker 2 32:09

Yeah.

Speaker 32:10

Where I'm so uh I'm so consumed with my grief and how you aren't you aren't consumed with my grief that I I don't stop and think, wow, my husband lost his only daughter too. I lost my daughter. And and he and he lost different, you know, things as well. And and then my boys, you know, they lost they lost their big sister. And having to stop and go, wow, what's that like for them? How it instead of wow, they're not they're not acknowledging my grief as the mother, you know, we can get caught up in that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 32:44

And that has to be a a conscious decision pretty much every day. Yes. The other danger, I think, in that if we you know, if we give in to that kind of of thinking that it's all my grief is consuming me, the danger is that it becomes your identity. Yes. And and we that that's a place you don't want to find yourself. And if you have found yourself in that place, if you're listening to this conversation today, and that's that's where you think maybe you are, I think Cherry would agree with me that it would be so beneficial if you could talk with a counselor, find a you know, a good faith-based counselor, or if you could talk with your pastor, or let somebody else that you trust into your grief and talk about that instead of staying there. It's easier to stay there. I mean, we both would acknowledge that.

Speaker 33:41

Because the effort's hard and we don't have the f energy for hard.

Speaker 1 33:45

Right, right. Our capacity for hard diminishes dramatically. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you referred to this a few minutes ago, and I love what you said about two of your friends who you receive a text from regularly. One sends you a prayer, a personalized prayer on a regular basis, and the other a verse of scripture. And so here you are almost three years out, and they still do that. Those are those are the rare friends who, after that much time, still understand that even though life went back to normal for them after your loss, it didn't for you. And they still understand that that you are in a different place in life. You're grieving, you're it it's painful and it's a form of suffering, and they're there for you. We both

Community Help That Actually Helps

Speaker 1 34:40

know the importance of community after after a loss like that. Give us some examples of what people did that like these two, these two ladies, things that people did that just meant so much to you on this grief journey that you'll never forget. Things that you treasure because they were willing to step out of their comfort zone in a place that they weren't familiar with, they didn't know how to do either, but they offered their presence and they offered a sacrifice of their time or whatever it might have been. What did that look like?

Speaker 35:18

Wow, so many. I keep thinking, well, which ones am I gonna pick? Well, yeah. You know, we raised our kids in Washington, but we had moved to Tennessee and Annie had been in Tennessee since 2019. Anyone that I talked to in her world said Annie moved to to Nashville and owned it within the first few months, and anyone and everyone knew who Annie was. We wanted to have a service for her in the Nashville area for those people, and we wanted to have one in our home church in Washington. When it when this first happened in Nashville, I you know you can probably speak into this too. I don't remember a whole lot. I honestly don't even remember. I I honestly don't remember leaving the hospital. I'm like, how did I get to the VRBO? I don't know. I hope someone else was driving. But a whole community, a whole community of people I don't even really know, just put on this service in the church. The flowers came, the food came, and people were flying in. My best friend who follows me on fine friends from Washington just jumped on a plane and showed up at the VRBO because she could see where I was at. So all of a sudden a knock on the door, and there she is. And she just cooked the food and washed the clothes and slept on the couch. And and then people we didn't know around the VRBO that had heard what had happened to us were bringing us food. Like, here's some bread. We don't know who you are, but we heard here's some breakfast foods. And people, and then people here in Cleveland, you know, we had only been here three years at that time, and I had meals, and I had people that were just getting to know us that would that hosted the two services were were broadcast, and these two ladies here in my home, this town here, hosted it at their house so people could come and watch it. And then, of course, God, because he is amazing, the house that we the street we live on, a lady across the street lost her daughter several years ago. But now we have each other to take walks with and share and talk. And so just these things that make such a big difference, even if it's just a loaf of bread that someone just says, you know, here's for your breakfast. And of course, we all know when no, don't ask us what we need. We don't know.

Speaker 1 37:35

Precisely. Thank you for saying that.

Speaker 37:37

But people that just show up and just say, Here's bread, or I'm going to the dry cleaner. Can I take your clothes with me? That's what one person just picked them up. She's like, I was at the dry cleaners and I saw I saw a large stack of yours here. I forgot I even had clothes there.

Speaker 1 37:54

What a gift. And that's that's what we want people to understand is we don't have the capacity to reach out and say, I need, and then you fill in the blank. You just can't bring yourself to do it. So what treasures these people are who just think about that and do it for you without having to be asked. They just, they look and they see, they notice, and they act. And it, you know, it's not anything magical. It's not anything you have to be trained for. You just it's just simply seeing what somebody else is going through, even if you don't understand it, stepping in, offering your presence, and offering to do practical things that they don't, they just cannot do when you're in that state of shock and in that early season of grief, sometimes even two or three years out.

Speaker 38:50

I'm still have I still have things that people will do that I'm still so thankful for.

Speaker 1 38:54

Yeah. And sometimes that second year can be tougher than the first year because it's like I wasn't gonna say that, but yeah. Yeah, because but it's true because in that first year, there's everything has changed, and you're still trying to learn how to navigate this new aspect of your life. Nothing's ever normal again. And I think in year two, the reality begins to settle in, and you realize that it's not going to ever be the same again. And you just have to learn to do life again. You don't ever get over it. You get through it a day at a time, and with you know, conscious decisions that you're having to make to walk through it every day. Cherry, what are some things that you have learned about God on this journey that maybe surprised you, that you didn't expect, or you know, that you that you didn't know before and how that has affected your relationship with Him today?

Speaker 39:57

I'm a I'm a Bible digger and I'm an answer. I I gotta have answers. I I used to tell authority in my life, I'm not challenging your answer. I just need to understand where it came from.

Speaker 2 40:08

Sure.

Speaker 40:08

I would frustrate many a teacher and my parents. And so just understanding different aspects of God and what it and what it what it really means, his will really means. Yeah. So many people, so many people want to throw these Christian-y sayings

God Says I Miss Her Too

Speaker 40:25

at you.

Speaker 1 40:27

Band aids.

Speaker 40:28

And and some of them aren't even really what God said. But one day I was in Annie's room and I was just really crying, having a really hard crying day. And I just said, God, I just I just miss her so much. And I clearly heard his voice say, I miss her too. And you know, we we we tell everyone, oh, our kids are in heaven and they're so happy. And we paint this picture of of God smiling, holding our children. And then we think, well, that's nice for them, right? God's that's nice for you that you get to be with my child and my child's happy. But then we don't give God, we take that character part away from him that says, you know what, I miss watching her with you. I miss hearing her laugh with you. I miss watching her and her brothers, I miss watching that dynamic and watching you dance in the kitchen. And I miss hearing her play the piano. I miss he misses her too. And that really helped me.

Speaker 1 41:31

Honestly never thought about that, Cherry. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I think that's uh that that can really make you stop and think. Because he, you know, he does experience the same, the same emotions that we do. I mean, he to give us the emotions that we have, he would have to have them too, because he, you know, he tells us in scripture that we were made in his image, which tells us exactly that. You know, before we go, Cherry, I I mean, I think you and I could probably talk for easily for another couple of hours. I'm not sure our listeners would stay with us for that long, but you know, sometimes, very often I find in talking with with parents who have lost a child that they want to do something to help other grieving parents. Sometimes they they feel called by the Lord to do specific things, whether it's starting a nonprofit, some sort of a ministry, writing a book, whatever it might be. And those are things that that those are ways that God can bring good out of something that was so tragic. And I know that he's done that in your life. And one of the things that you have done, that you've designed yourself that I absolutely love

Grief Cards For What To Say

Speaker 1 42:47

and wish could get into the hands of everybody who has who has a friend or a family member who's lost a child. And it's those cards that you designed about what to say, what not to say. Tell us about that and tell our listeners what it was that spurred you or that gave you that creative thought to do this, and then how they can get get it for themselves.

Speaker 43:14

Thank you. Well, everyone says to us, I just don't know what to say. Right. And I I know approaching a parent that's lost a child, I think it's one of the scariest. I tell people I'm probably the scariest person in the room to approach because yeah, uh people just don't know what to say. And so one day I was saying, there's, you know, we've got to get beyond that, because even just saying I'm sorry is perfect. But as a writer, I love to, I keep every card that someone has actually written really a really nice messages. I keep them. And I also started keeping a word doc of all the I thought nice questions people would ask me. And it started one day with a friend who's never met Annie, and she called me up and she said, Okay, I just took my son for his first drive with his permit, and it was the scariest thing I've ever encountered. What was it like to teach Annie to drive? And I hadn't, I just thought that's this the kindest thing ever. How brave of her, who didn't even know my daughter, how brave of her to call me and just ask that question and not be afraid to ask me that. And we shared the funniest story of Annie turning into oncoming traffic and both of us screaming our guts out as cars are coming towards us. Yeah. And it felt good to laugh. And I thought that was the kindest thing. And I just started keeping track of questions people would ask me. And it was coming up on what I call the we call them anniversaries, but the one year anniversary. I love that. And I thought, who I want to. Take, I want to have a time with my boys and their wives. We sit down and just have a ref time to reflect about what the year has been. But if you have boys, you know, trying to get them to talk about it anything emotional or just how has your year been, they're gonna go fine.

Speaker 1 45:02

Exactly.

Speaker 45:04

And both my boys were newlyweds, and I felt bad for these brand new wives to come into our home. And then this massive tragedy happens in their new their first years of their my one son got married three months after Annie passed away. So these new brides are like, ah. And they were thinking, oh great, mom's a curriculum writer, so we're gonna get a lesson plan, right? So I was like, I don't know what to do. And then I thought they love card games, they love fun card games. So I took all these questions, put them on index cards, ran them off to Staples, and put them on the table. So when we get together in the afternoon or in the evening, they could just pull a card and answer the question. And everyone answered it differently. So it was fun. And some were funny questions, some were a little bit more reflective. And I even noticed sometimes one would be by themselves just looking through the questions. And I started telling my friends, oh, this is what we did. And they'd say, Well, I want those questions because I have a friend that her mother died and I don't know what to say. And and someone else said, Well, I want those questions, I want those cards. And I'd be like, Well, they're just my index cards. And like, no, I need those cards. I'm gonna be talking to a friend and I don't know what to say. So I just said, Well, I'm gonna make a set of these cards and they're gonna be called Beyond, I don't know what to say. And so that's what I did.

Speaker 1 46:25

Wow, I love that. I love that. And how striking it is that that you shared that a moment ago about the the impact that that question had on you. The question about what was it like? Was it scary when you when you taught Annie to drive? I think so many people that are looking in from the outside, they think questions like that are going to hurt us, that it's gonna cause anxiety or pain or to make us remember something that we wanted to forget. And it's the opposite, isn't it? You that question, uh, even though it came out of left field for you, seemingly, was like a treasure, right?

Speaker 47:10

It was. It was a gift because it's a memory I hadn't thought about for a long time.

Speaker 1 47:15

Yeah. And like people whose children are living, all parents want to talk about their children. We still want to talk about our children, even though they've gone on to be with the Lord in heaven. We still want to talk about them because they're still part of us. They're they're just as much a part of us today as they were when they were here with us. And we don't want other people to forget about them. I think that's one of our greatest fears is that other people will forget about our child and act as though they never existed. So please take the risk.

Speaker 2 47:50

Yes.

Speaker 1 47:50

You know, if if we can't talk about it at the time, we'll let you know. But for I think for most of us, our response would be exactly what you described, Cherry. Thank you for asking about my child and using their name in a sentence. Yeah.

Speaker 48:08

And sometimes I can tell if someone's nervous around me and there's a little pause, and I will say, So, you know, Greg, tell me about your daughter and how are things going. And I'll listen and I'll say, I'll listen for something that maybe Annie was like. And I'll say, Oh, my Annie would have loved that. Annie did the same thing, blah, blah. And then I've broken that little bit of tension.

Speaker 2 48:32

Yeah.

Speaker 48:33

And now they fe now they feel a little more comfortable. They'll be like, oh, okay, it's okay. She's okay if we say Annie's name.

Speaker 2 48:40

Right.

Speaker 48:41

So there's people like my friend that just call and say, What was it like? And then there's people that they they you can kind of tell. They're like, Oh, do I say something? And that's when I'll say, So tell me about, tell me about, you know, Sarah. How's she doing? And how are the kids? And then I'll say, Oh, Annie would have loved that. Annie did that.

Speaker 1 48:58

I love that. We we do that all the time too, Cherry. Yeah. We people who know us, who are part of our lives, hear about Ryan co constantly. Yeah. He always comes into a conversation. No matter what it is we're doing, we bring him into it. And and therefore they feel like they know him too, even if they never met him.

Speaker 49:22

What was it like to teach him to drive?

Speaker 1 49:24

Yeah. Oh. Scary. Yeah. Yep. Well, so let's stepping back to the cards. How can people get these? Because I think this is really an incredibly important and useful resource. I I wish that I could give a set to everybody I know.

Speaker 49:49

Well, they can go to my website, which is sherryfletcher.com. And Sherry's spilled with a C. So C or I. SherryFletcher.com. And at the top, they'll see the link that says grief cards. And they're for podcast listeners. If you just type in welcome 10, you get 10% off. And that is, if you're listening to this podcast five years down the road, it's the same. It's an evergreen, 10% for the podcast. For podcast listeners, just welcome 10.

Speaker 1 50:15

Wow. That that is such an incredible opportunity. And I would I I have a set of these because Sherry was so kind as to to send me and Kathy a set. And the questions are just incredible. And so I would encourage you, if you're listening today, I will put, I will include Cherry's website link in her podcast episode description. And you can go there and click on that link and you can also obtain some of these. Maybe consider some for you know for your church. Be a great resource to have on hand.

Speaker 50:51

Yeah, they do have the more you order, they're, you know, they could do go down in price. Right. And then you can email me directly. Some if there's like a group grief project you're doing. And one church has ordered several for like a case for their baskets for grief baskets. And I did do a little bit more of a discount when it came to a larger like case price. So you can send me emails.

Speaker 1 51:15

Yeah, that's great. Well, Cherry, thank you so very much for being my guest today and and sharing Annie with all of our listeners and just sharing about what your journey has been like. And I think as people listen to our conversation today, they're they're gonna find hope and encouragement.

Speaker 51:34

I hope so. Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 51:38

Yeah, thank you. And for our listeners, thank you for listening today. I hope that you do find hope and encouragement through the conversation that we had. And we look forward to having you back in a couple of weeks.